Should we even draw the line?
Everyone knows by now about the Kathy Griffin comment, so no need to re-hash it here.
But why are most Christians doing more than just turning the other cheek? They're giving her a free pass. Her comment is detestable and disgusting in every way imagineable. It should be ok, that I or anyone else, find it offensive and state it so. Regardless of whether or not you are a devout follower of Jesus Christ.
I'm not advocating "condemning her" (by the way, if anyone wants to define what "condemning her means", I'm open to it). I'm not advocating a Clint Eastwood reaction to everything that rubs Christianity the wrong way. Not only is that response unbiblical, but to some very drastic results, it has been tried in the past by the whole of Christianity.
But as a Christian, it is perfectly ok and reasonable, and should be expected that you draw the line...somewhere. And a comment like this, should be one of those instances.
The missional, emergeing, let's talk about it, never argue about it type always point to the love, peace, and compassion taught and lived out by Jesus and then continued by the apostles in the beginning of the early church. They point to the fact that Jesus nor the apostles got mixed up in the politics of it all. They lived for an audience of one. I'm down with all of that, and in the last couple of years I have changed a lot in that area myself. Sure, I still talk and write about politics, but I have realized to mix that with religion isn't the way it should be. But it goes more than just abortion and gay rights, but universal healthcare and the death penalty too. But that's for a different day and time. I've grown up, not afraid to say it.
But this comment goes to the heart of the matter of the whole human race. Deliberate, willful rebellion against God and his word.
Jesus drew the line at this in his own life. Remember the incident at the temple? He literally beat out all the people, kicked over the tables, and started yelling. *Gasp* Jesus got pissed and got physical with those who were using the temple to make a financial gain (hey, I wonder if Jesus cares about the church at all...I know, different day and time). He does all this by quoting scripture. *Gasp* using the scriptures to promote a physical (violent) reaction to someone disobeying God's word.
"That's not the Jesus way"
Well maybe it is.
Look, I'm not saying I am going to go get a lead pipe and beat her over the head with it. I'm not saying it would be nice to see Rob Bell, Max Lucado, Mark Driscoll, John Piper, Brian McLaren, et al. actually take a stance on something and voice an opinion. I'm not advocating boycotting her show, or the network, or the sponsors, or the co-stars, or the picture company, or the director, or any other direct or indirect connection to Kathy, or yes, to even alter my investment choices. I'm not saying a vigilante group of Christians should get together and go up-turn the tables and break the cameras on the set of Kathy's TV show.
I'm not saying any of that. But, for me to be offended and renounce her comment as not funny and not acceptable anywhere, ever should not get me the label of close-minded, uncompassionate, and/or I am condeming her.
But I will cop to being close-minded if you tell me the comment didn't offend you, and my response to you is I'm grieved for you.
Jesus accepted everyone and anyone, but he drew the line when it came to slandering his Father's name.
Here for Kathy's inaccuracy from the Catholic perspective and here for more Catholic repsonse and why they maybe have it right sometimes.
15 comments:
No question, it was an offensive comment. But it does seem a little petty to respond to every disparaging remark about God.
Isn't this basic kindergarten playground ethics? Someone is trying to pick a fight; don't take the bait.
I think you missed the point of my post.
I'm not sure how much more obvious I can be about this.
I wasn't offended by what she said. Also, I don't think that Jesus was all that offended.
Didn't she used to host the Surreal World? Now, THAT was offensive.
I see Jesus' response in the temple as one towards the hypocrasy and greed of man doing something in the name of God. To my recollection, Jesus got fired up, however, it was usually directed at his disciples for misrepresenting who He was and why He was there.
A few group, including a Christian theater group, has taken ads out in USA Today against Kathy. While I understand their stance, and in some ways applaud it, lives and minds are not changed/influenced by newspaper ads. They are changed in individuals home, where believers live out the teaching of Christ in their lives.
I don't like what Kathy said, but I loath it when Believers wear that label and misrepresent Christ by their living.
I don't mind it when Christians "draw a line" against this kind of stuff, but I think they believe they often think that their "stand" makes them good in the whole scheme of thing. If it is part of the balanced life, then fire it up.
Brian, I find your post flawlessly logic, and if I were in your shoes I would have expressed my opinion exactly the way you have. In fact, I find *all of your posts* to be perfectly logical, and your ability to express your opinion with logic surpasses any of the other bloggers I know.
Think of this in contrast to Corey's posts. He's not nearly as analytical, but he expresses his opinions artisticly; visually -- and his stories inspire creative thinking. He surpasses everyone in his ability to get us to imagine his perspective.
There is a reason why I'm saying this. I know I have a tendency to just fight your comments with equal and often opposite logic, but I think I can explain my view without fighting.
Would you agree that in Kathy's mind she was not literally speaking to Jesus? She was speaking to people like her who would also jump at the chance to mock Christians. Secondly, I think she was speaking to Christians with an intent to offend, and you have to ask yourself why she would do this. Does she just not give a crap about your beliefs? Was it just carelessness?
Here's my point. Kathy undoubtedly believes that her soul is not hellbound. Let's step into her shoes -- and temporarily believe that she is ok. Now lets imagine that people hound her about her sinfulness. Let's say that people hammer her with the thought that she can do no good thing and is going to hell.
That *absolute* view pushed upon her could cause her to believe it -- or it could cause her to view those "pushers" as very intrusive to *her* beliefs and standards. Perhaps she thinks that it is harmful for people to suggest that she can do no good thing and that she is going to hell. Now since we are viewing this from her shoes, we can begin to understand a reaction to that feeling people have created within her.
One of the strongest ways to express a great distaste for the pressure tactics is to equate those beliefs with something universally bad. Think of "our righteousness is but filthy rags." We are drawing an analogy of our goodness.
I think Kathy expressed an analogy in terms of her feelings, and so although she was not talking to Jesus (obviously in her mind Jesus is dead), she was talking to you.
And so "Suck it, Jesus" begins to make sense. I think she was fighting back with an equal but opposite force of the "Christian Collective" that has been shoved in her face.
It demonstrates her severe distaste for what Christians stand for, and after all, she might have a point.
Which, doesn't change the fact that I think the comment was disgusting.
I haven't passed judgement on Kathy at all. I do not know any of her intentions.
But I know the comment offended me. So, regardless of the fact I may be able to put myself in her shoes and follow what I think her thought process was (read - no one knows what her thought process was or why she said it) I can find the comment disgusting.
What is so wrong with that?
Why is nothing suppose to offend me or grieve me, ever?
Why am I suppose to give a free pass to anyone who mocks, makes fun off, disparages, rips on, bastardizes, slanders, or otherwise talks crap out of their mouth when it comes to Jesus?
Why am I suppose to be offended that Bush won't pass SCHIP?
Why am I suppose to be offended that we are still in Iraq?
Why am I suppose to be offended about Al Gore's hypocrisy?
Why am I suppose to be offended about the Crusades thousands of years ago?
But I can't be offended by "Suck It, Jesus?!"
This was at the heart of the posting.
For whatever reason, it has been missed, again.
No one said you can't be offended. You're allowed to do whatever floats your boat. I just wanted to point out that there was no universal reason to be offended, because I wasn't offended by it. I still can't find anything offensive in it.
Perhaps we should avoid measuring our dedication to a faith in terms of linguistic sensitivity. In other words, some people look at me and ask, "Doesn't it anger you when someone says 'Goddamn'?" And when I respond "No," they immediately equate my lack of offense with a lack of dedication.
By the way, vetoing SCHIPS leaves children uninsured. Saying "Suck it, Jesus" doesn't really hurt anybody - sticks and stones do.
So seeing this from her perspective doesn't change whatsoever how you view the comment?
What if Kathy stubbed her toe at home and said, "suck it, Jesus" to herself. Lets say you somehow knew this happened -- do you view that situation the same as her publicly saying what she said?
I've been thinking of this whole Kathy thing in terms of someone trying to get to me by saying, "yo mamma...."
You can diss me, but don't diss my mamma.
Does anyone ever think that Kathy probably doesn't know that much about Jesus? Has the bully ever met your mamma?
I think the fact that every is riled up gives her comment credence. If it had been ignored, it would have just been another pointless tease.
The point to this post is being proved by all of this back and forth going on.
Why I can't I just be offended?
I'm not demonizing her.
I'm not saying she is dying and going to hell.
I'm not mobilizing tens of people to action.
I'm not even letting it ruin my life.
Why can't I just be offended by the comments?
Why do I have to start thinking about all of these options?
The only reason I even posted this entry was to make sure this exact thing happen. So that it could prove the fact that if it isn't George Bush or the "USAmerican Church" I can never be offended by anything.
But wait a minute, Brian. By stating that you are offended means that she is offensive to you.
We are defined not by what we think but by what we do.
Using that premise, you have said:
"She is detestable and disgusting in every way imagineable."
"Kathy goes to the heart of the matter of the whole human race. Deliberate, willful rebellion against God and his word."
"For me to be offended and renounce her as not funny and not acceptable anywhere, ever should not get me the label of close-minded, uncompassionate, and/or I am condemning her."
Brian, the context in which you view Kathy's comment is the context in which you view Kathy. I'm not judging you -- I'm just stating that this is the psychology that works on every single human being.
We are to others what they observe us do.
You have a right to be offended and to say so. You also have a right to not consider anyone else's perspective. My suggestion is that if we look at others' view of the situation, it should reinforce our own beliefs -- or it should modify them -- and I'm not saying that reinforcement is a bad thing at all.
You can and should be offended by things. I know I am!
I am also not saying that what we do *is* what we actually are. Lord knows I've said some pretty raunchy things, and yet at the core I am not raunchy. But to people who hear me be offensive would conclude that I am offensive. I am far less offensive to people who know me and understand my reasons -- as opposed to someone who happens upon my blog and sees me bashing beliefs or whatever.
It is your perogative to find Kathy offensive. Just be sure you have considered her perspective too.
Hate to pile on, but Brian, your post seemed to be a call to "Draw the line." In the post you said that it "should be expected that you draw the line...somewhere. And a comment like this, should be one of those instances."
I still don't see why this has to be an instance of offense.
I think Brian might be ticked off. Come back, Brian! What are you thinking?
Ticked off? Pretty much never. Really, honestly. And it drives my wife crazy.
Frustrated? Absolutely, all the time. And it drives my wife crazy.
I could not disagree with you more Gary (actually I probably could, but that is for a different day and subject).
Me finding the comment offensive does not mean I find her offensive. There is no way that is an absolute fact. And whether I view things from her perspective or not should have no bearing on whether or not I find her comment offensive.
Corey - I fail to see why you keep repeating the same thing?
Again, memo to everyone
I'M OFFENDED, BUT HONESTLY, I'M DOING NOTHING MORE ABOUT IT THAN GETTING INTO A PISSING MATCH WITH COREY AND GARY ABOUT IT.
WHOOPDE DO!!!!!!!
I find it offensive. Despite the fact I roll my eyes when I hear it. And I do think all Christians should find it offensive. Does this mean hostility, NO!!!!!!!!!
Corey, I will say this it is hard for me to believe that an intelligent person like yourself is more offended and reactionary to the SBC offering women a bachelor's degree in how to be a house wife and whether the pro-war mantra from the Evangelical crowd has been more detrimental to the missionaries in Iraq, than the comment Suck It, Jesus!
Really honestly cannot believe it.
You have chosen to give your life to bringing the Good News about Jesus (yes, the same Jesus Kathy tells to suck it) to the youth and teenagers that come into and out of your life.
Does this mean you are to get all emotional and start screaming and yelling and telling your teenagers to turn off the TV and boycott everything?
No.
Are you above that comment and in the grand scheme of things you really don't care and even now, the only reason you still even care is this pissing match we are in?
Yes.
But dude, seriously, she told Jesus to Suck It.
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